Anonymous 5

Sasha Sobol: What are your definitions of “man” and “woman?”

Anonymous 5:  A man is the guy with a dick and a woman is the person without a dick.

SS: Is that all there is to it?

A: I believe it’s the differences in their bodies and maybe in their minds.

SS: Are there any gender roles that you think should be there and are there any that you wish didn’t exist?

A: I don’t care.

SS: Do you conform to society’s gender expectations?

A: Mostly.

SS: For the “mostly” part, is it more because society expects you to or because you identify with the expectations?

A: I don’t “identify” with the expectations. I don’t feel like anything different would suit me.

SS: Is there anything that you do that might not be usually associated with your gender?

A:  I can’t think of anything a teenager would do that wouldn’t be specifically associated with their gender unless it’s something that would not be done often. Would you please explain your question?

SS: There are things that stereotypically teenage boys do and there are things that stereotypically teenage boys don’t do. Is there anything that you do that stereotypically teenage boys don’t do?

A: Let’s see... I don’t wear skirts, I don’t wear high heels, I do not play with barbies. I don’t know, I cannot think of an example of something that teenage boys stereotypically don’t do that I do. Because all the examples that I can think of that teenage boys stereotypically don’t do are kind of stupid. Give me an example please.

SS: Like caring about your appearance, brushing your hair... So basically you’re saying that doing girly things is stupid?

A: No, I’m not saying that. First of all, all boys care about their appearance. Because if they didn’t, earth would be a little different. Appearance and hygiene.

SS: Do you think that they care about their appearance because society expects them to be a certain way?

A: No, they care about their appearance because they want popularity and most of them do not want to be too different.

SS: There are two situations I would like you to talk about once I mention the situations. So situation number one: A lot of the time when it’s socially acceptable for a man to show his chest, a woman has to cover hers and there are laws in certain places that prohibit women from showing their nipples. Situation number two: In formal wear especially, it’s acceptable for women to show their legs and arms and cleavage and men basically have to wear a suit and they can’t even wear shorts or something or anything other than a suit and they can’t really show much of their body. What do you think about these two situations and the relationship between the two?

A: In situation number one, I don’t think the laws should be there, but I do believe in situations when it’s appropriate for a man to show his chest but it [is not socially acceptable for a woman to do the same], it would be uncomfortable for women to show their chests. Situation number two is kind of fucked up, but men never really have the desire to show off their bodies and cleavage when women do have the option of wearing suits.

SS: are you saying all men want to wear suits or the majority of men?

A: I’m saying that the majority of male population of humans on Earth do not have desire of showing off their bodies. Although they might not like suits, they would not feel formal in a dress. Although there’s nothing wrong with it. And women simply have the option of wearing that shows off their bodies more and the only problem with that situation that I see is that some men basically do not have the option of appearing formal to society and showing off their cleavage at the same time.

SS: A lot of the time, women and girls are encouraged to embrace their masculine side. For example, if a girl wanted to play football, it would not be looked down upon  as much as if a boy wanted to do ballet, even though there are obviously professional male dancers. The point is that it’s a lot more acceptable for a woman to be masculine than for a man to be feminine. What do you think about that?

A: I think in time this will change because in recent history women have been discriminated against a lot more than men. Now humankind is trying to make up for that by giving women extra options. And I think that in a couple hundred years the world will hopefully be a lot more unisex than it is now.

SS: Kind of related to that is my last question. Do you think it’s important to make the world a more accepting place for gender nonconforming people and how can this be done if you think it’s the right thing to do?

A: Well, the only people who are not ok with such people are basically the people who discriminate against them and I don’t think there is any way to change that, as possibly their minds have been altered by their childhoods and what they have been taught. It would be impossible to get rid of such people or make them change your mind without including mass murder or imprisonment, which in this case is not very helpful.

SS: Why is masculinity valued as more than femininity and how is this related to discrimination in the workplace?

A: I think that masculinity is sometimes looked upon as better or more important because they are bigger. As they’re bigger and stronger, they were originally the leaders, although in modern society it is believed by most of the actually smart people that brain-wise the male and female human is equal overall although each has their advantages and disadvantages.

SS: Thank you.

Note: This interview was done in person.

Vera Boguslavskaya

Vera Boguslavskaya

Sasha Sobol: What are your definitions of "man" and "woman?"

Vera Boguslavskaya: Never thought about it this way. Yeah, just a person with some gender specific parts. It works for most people and I believe if a person insists to belong to the other gender it's ok.

SS: Are there any gender roles that you think should be there and are there any that you wish did not exist?

VB: I think that on one hand with all the progress we have in contraception and baby care and everything, gender roles should be eliminated and on the other hand [as long as] women are still responsible for giving birth to kids, they should be protected in some way. I think that traditional stereotypes don't improve life nor for men neither for women. So men are under bigger pressure, have more stressful lives because they kind of have to achieve something; otherwise they don't "count" as men. And women are still treated as a second sort of people, unfortunately. I think that getting rid of those strict roles will help people to get more flexibility, more freedom and live better lives because they would have more choices. It doesn't mean that it's wrong for a woman to just stay at home with kids. It's ok if she really wants it. It doesn't mean that it's bad for a man to be ambitious and build his career. It just means that both [options] should be available for everybody.

SS: Do you conform to the society's gender expectations?

VB: Not always.

SS: Can you give some examples of when you do not conform?

VB: Well, for example in Russia it's not general that a woman drives and a man doesn't and it happened in our family. And I frequently found myself talking to my man friends as just fellow friends and then at some point they looked really surprised that they talked to a woman and not a man.

SS: For the times you do conform, is it more because society expects you to or because you--

VB: Because I feel comfortable to do this way. I don't really care about society in terms of what people would think about me.

SS: The next question is about two different situations and what you think about them. So the first one is that a lot of the time when it's socially acceptable for a man to expose his chest, a woman has to cover hers and in some places there are laws that prohibit women from exposing their nipples and the other situation was that when women are allowed to show their legs, arms, and cleavage, as in with dresses and formal situations, men have to wear suits and can't really show a lot of skin.

VB: I don't know what should be in general, but just from my perspective, I never really wanted to be naked on my top unless it's a really hot place like the beach or whatever. At the beach, first of all there are beaches where you [are] allowed to be topless and second, it's not very good cancer-wise to expose your breasts to the sun, so maybe it's not that bad for women. I think I most struggle from observing some not-so-nice looking too fat guys than from inability to be topless myself.

SS: Do you think women should be allowed to be topless if they wanted to?

VB: I don't really see any place beside a beach or a pool where it would seem to be appropriate for me or maybe I don't know... No, on a street -- not really. And maybe on the street it's not nice to see topless men as well. So, on a beach yes they should be allowed. Maybe there should be some kind of separate places for people who maybe don't want to expose their kids to the view of naked women. Or men.

SS: Naked as in topless?

VB: Or maybe completely naked. Because, you know, it's really cool to swim naked. Yeah, but if you have bright sun you have to cover yourself anyway.

SS: Some people don't burn.

VB: But ultraviolet still causes skin cancer even if you don't burn.

SS: What about the second situation?

VB: The second situation. I really feel sorry for men who can't be as creative as women for their formal dresses. And I feel really privileged as a woman that I can dress up different ways. And I don't really feel like showing your legs or cleavage is inappropriate for anybody. It may be inappropriate when you're in a church or people are supposed to be covered or in some religious place. But overal, come on. We all have legs, it's not something to hide. Oh yeah, and I really like men in kilts.

SS: Do you think it's kind of ironic that in different situations men and women are expected to cover more or less of their bodies?

VB: Never thought about it... No, it's not ironic because I think both situations kind of derived from objectivization of women's body. Because they are not supposed to be too attractive so they have to cover their nipples in all situations otherwise those "poor men" can unexpectedly be overexcited. And in formal situaitons, men look like "serious person" and their formal suits look pretty similar so nothing will distract them from their business. And women look like tropical birds to please those serious guys.

SS: So the next question is about the value of masculinity and femininity and how women are sometimes encouraged to embrace their masculine side while feminine men are kind of looked down upon by society. And the question is why do you think that is and why do you think femininity is valued as less than masculinity?

VB: It's complicated because you should first define how exactly you understand femininity and masculinity. And it's hard for me to answer this question because English is not my native language. But in Russian, there are a lot of words connecting with females or femininity that [are] kind of [degrading] and a lot of other words that are connected to masculinity that could be formally as rude as the first ones, but actually they are positive adjectives. And I think it's all kind of outcomes from the patriarchy system when men were real people and real humans and women were just some creatures to make babies and maybe please these real people. And yes, there are differences that depend on hormones because on average having more testosterone, men are stronger, more aggressive, and more competitive. Not because they're are better or women are better. It's just some hormonal thing. That's why young men drivers pay high insurances. Insurance rate depends on statistics, not some gender speculations and young men drivers do get into more accidents than young women drivers. But on the other hand, you cannot just assign some abilities to just one gender.  Having more instances of some characteristics in one gender doesn't mean the other gender doesn't have them.

SS: Kind of building off of the patriarchy and the idea that femininity is valued as less than masculinity, how does that relate to discrimination in the workplace?

VB: I don't know the answer to how it relate, but I do know that discrimination still exists. And even people who will answer the straight question "Do you think men can do this job better than women?" they will say "Oh, no, we should consider the abilities of the candidate before hiring him or her and we don't care" but in reality there were a couple studies where different scientist, so it's not like underprivileged people, or uneducated people, but scientists [of both genders], they were presented some applications, the very same applications, and they should kind of read it and either accept or deny it and whatever. And so the very same application was submitted under a definitely feminine name and a definitely masculine name and the very same application got higher grades with [a] masculine name than it got with [a] feminine name. And the weird thing is that not only [did] men scientists [grade the work under a male name better], but [women graded men higher too]. [referring to this study: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/09/21/study-offers-new-evidence-scientists-are-biased-against-women ]

SS: Do you think it's important to make the world a more accepting place to gender nonconforming people and if so, how can this be done?

VB: I think that in long perspective it would be done and it is necessary to work on it, but it can't be done in just one click. It should be done through some educational work because not many people know just how many gender nonconforming people there are around and sometimes they think that they're some weird freaks and just don't understand. We have example of women who fight for their rights and in the last hundred years they achieved a lot. And we see homosexual people who in the last 20 years achieved a lot. So, yeah the modern world is kind of ready for different changes but you do need to educate people to convince them to change their perception.

SS: I think that is about it. Is there anything else you would like to add?

VB: It was interesting to talk to you. Thank you.

SS: Thank you.

Note: This is my mom. I had a lot of fun talking to her.

This interview was done in person.

Pat Phillips

Pat Phillips

Sasha Sobol: What are your definitions of "man" and "woman?"

Pat Phillips: My definitions: One of the big aspects of the difference between a man and a woman is she is able to bear a child.

SS: Are there any specific gender roles that you think should be there? Are there any you wish did not exist?

PP: Well maybe the fact that a woman is supposed to be kind of soft and sweet and seems willing to take on a burden at times.

SS: Do you conform to the society's gender expectations? Is there anything you do that is not usually associated with your gender? If you do conform, is it more because society expects you to or because you identify with the expectations?

PP: Yes. Well, I do not do anything that's unusual for my gender. And if I did, I do not think I would care what other people might think.

SS: A lot of the time when it's socially acceptable for a man to expose his chest, a woman has to cover hers. Yet when it is socially acceptable for a woman to show her legs, arms, and cleavage (think dresses), the same is not acceptable for a man. What are your thoughts about these two situations?

PP: [talking about the second situation] I think it's a man's point of view and it would make him too feminine, quite artificial.

[talking about the first question] I don't know of any situations where I have ever been in where this was a concern, so I have a different opinion.

SS: In many cases, women and girls are encouraged to embrace their masculine side, while feminine men and boys are looked down upon by society. What do you think about this?  Why do you think femininity is seen as less than masculinity?  How does this relate to discrimination in the workplace?

PP: I don't believe there's that much discrimination in the workplace, unless you happened to walk into an unusual group of people. I don't agree that women are encouraged to be masculine. I think the majority of women love being feminine. I guess the fact that I don't know too many masculine women puts me on a difficult situation because I don't agree with the premise.

SS: Is it important to make the world a more welcoming place for gender nonconforming people? If so, how can this be done?

PP: I don't think it's important to go around changing people. And I think we're all happy just the way we are and I think a feminine man is just as happy.

SS: Is there anything else you would like to add?

PP: Actually, no except it's been fun talking to you.

Note: This was my first ever in-person interview. I randomly asked this lady to do my interview and have absolutely no idea who she is. As it usually happens when you do something for the first time, I made a mistake. Actually, two mistakes. First, instead of recording the interview and transcribing it later, I frantically typed what she said. The other mistake was that I was only writing down her answers to the questions and nothing else that made the interview a conversations instead of it just being a bunch of questions and answers without any record of interaction.

This interview was done in person.

Krystal Rossi

Krystal Rossi

What are your definitions of "man" and "woman?"

My definitions of men and women are I guess how you define yourself.

Are there any specific gender roles that you think should be there? Are there any you wish did not exist?

That men can't get pregnant, come on they would die. The idea that women are "property" really makes me mad.

Do you conform to the society's gender expectations? Is there anything you do that is not usually associated with your gender? If you do conform, is it more because society expects you to or because you identify with the expectations?

Not really. My anger isn't really a girlie thing, is it? I guess some rules apply to me but not a lot!

A lot of the time when it's socially acceptable for a man to expose his chest, a woman has to cover hers. Yet when it is socially acceptable for a woman to show her legs, arms, and cleavage (think dresses), the same is not acceptable for a man. What are your thoughts about these two situations?

Well I don't like either of the situation are a good thing to show off.

In many cases, women and girls are encouraged to embrace their masculine side, while feminine men and boys are looked down upon by society. What do you think about this?  Why do you think femininity is seen as less than masculinity?  How does this relate to discrimination in the workplace?

I think it would be really mean to mess with a feminine guy. I think people who are "masculine" enjoy to make feminine guys look bad and themselves look good.

Is it important to make the world a more welcoming place for gender nonconforming people? If so, how can this be done?

Like I said they want to look good. People who are religious should be more welcome.

Is there anything else you would like to add?

People shouldn't care about if someone is gay or straight they should just take care of them self and be more accepting!