Galen Rosenberg

Galen Rosenberg

Sasha Sobol: What are your definitions of “man” and “woman?”

Galen Rosenberg: I mean, just like what the word means?

SS: Yes.

GR: I guess I would initially go with to the extent that there’s genetically measurable differences that people categorize as male and female, that male are the people who have the genetic characteristics of male and women are the people who have genetic characteristics of women. I know there’s genetic variation that sometimes makes it more complicated. I have a niece who’s got [triple X syndrome and] she has an extra X chromosome. She presents as female, everybody calls her a girl, but I guess even genetically it’s a little complicated sometimes.

SS: Are there any gender roles that you think should be there and are there any that you wish did not exist?

GR: I don’t know about should, I think whatever the biological and cultural forces are that guide people’s behavior in one direction or another, they are what they are, I guess, in a given culture and in a given time. I think there definitely are cases where people’s gender roles seem wrong for them as individuals, make them uncomfortable, make them feel untrue to themselves, or limit them in terms of what they think they would like to be or do. So, generally I think that’s not a good thing. People feel like whatever the biological or cultural norms are makes them unhappy.

SS: Do you, for the most part, conform to society’s gender expectations?

GR: Yeah, I would say pretty much. It depends on which kind of society, or which part of our culture, let’s say you’re looking at, and there’s definitely been times when I pretty consciously felt like what I thought some people or some part of the culture thought about me as male was not what I thought of as myself. And there’ve been times when I thought that who I think I am as an individual is not consistent with the simple black and white dichotomy of male and female, that’s for sure. But I think if you ask most people they’d say, you know, Galen Rosenberg is pretty male, I guess.

SS: Is there anything that you do that is not typically associated with your gender?

GR: Well, going with the high school, I’ve always been literary, I guess. I like sports, but there’s always been stuff about the kind of hypermasculine aspects of male sports that I have felt uncomfortable with. So, when I remember high school sports, I think, even though I liked sports, I was not comfortable with the kind of macho, you know, behaviors associated with that. When I went to Berkeley and was a women’s studies major, I was the only guy in the program. I was obviously very aware of that, and the fact that I was the only guy meant that I was not “typically male,” I guess, just data-wise, but I felt fine about that. I like to do some things that are traditionally thought of as female. I learned to sew when I was in high school and sewed some of my own clothes and sewed stuff for girlfriends, sewed my wife’s wedding dress. But that’s not terribly radical, I don’t think.

SS: For the things that you do conform with, is it more because society expects you to or because that’s just how you are?

GR: It’s hard to say. Sometimes. My measure of that kind of thing is that there’s always a complicated kind of mirror to look through on those things about if I’m comfortable with who I am and how I feel about what I’m doing or how I am being, then I think that’s me being authentic with myself or something, not conforming to expectations, but on the other hand, it’s hard to know within my own head whether I’m just comfortable with conforming to the expectations or there’s something genuine about wanting to sew clothing or whatever. I definitely know that the kind of macho aspect of what is thought of as masculine normal behavior, I always been-- just thought that was just kind of weird. And I’ve never been really drawn in that direction. So if I were in a culture where that was, like, I don’t know, to be stereotypical about it, if I grew up in a small midWestern town where all the boys were on the football team and stuff like that, I know I would have not been comfortable. I think. Of course I didn’t grow up there.

SS: So the next question is about two situations. I’m going to tell you what they are and ask you what you think about them. The first one is how often when it’s acceptable for a man to expose his chest, a woman has to cover hers and in many places there are laws that prohibit women from showing their chest in public. And the second situation is about formal wear and how women can show their arms, legs, and cleavage and men kind of don’t really have any options and they have to wear suits.

GR: Well, it’s an interesting paradox. It was never pointed out quite that directly to me the way you’re describing it. That is interesting. Although obviously there’s big cultural differences and in some cultures women can’t expose themselves, legs, arms, at all, regardless of the formality, although at home they can, etcetera. But in our culture, I think our culture’s really paradoxical and hypocritical in its understanding of people’s sexuality to the extent that bearing skin can either implicitly or explicitly be associated with sexual attractiveness or whatever. Because in some ways our society is very in your face and sexualized, by all kinds of things that don’t have anything to do with sex, really, like so much of marketing, you know, you could sell your car, insurance, using sexualized imagery or whatever. And so, clothing is an expression of that. And I think that for whatever reason our cultures felt like women’s breasts are sexualized and therefore shouldn’t be exposed, but then because our society uses sexualized imagery to convey things and women are taught to do that, I think, that’s probably also natural on some level to do that. On the one hand, you’re not supposed to expose, on the other hand you “should” because it’s attractive. I think men’s bodies are not seen, at least historically in our culture, have not been seen as sexual in quite the same way. So like a guy walking around the quad with his shirt off might on some level be sexualized, but I don’t think in quite the same way. And so, that’s changing. Not necessarily in a good way, and I think fairly recently in our society. But I don’t know that the fact that in formal wear men have to wear suits and are covered has a whole lot to do with sexuality. I think it has to do more with authority and power or something like that. Where as with women, it definitely does. I think what gets covered and what doesn’t get covered is primarily about that in our society.

SS: In our society it's more acceptable for a woman to be masculine than for a man to be feminine. Why do you think that is and why do you think femininity is valued as less than masculinity?

GR: Not sure I agree with that. When you're thinking of our culture, do you think at [this school]?

SS: Possibly, and I guess the stereotypical Western culture in general.

GR: I don't know, when I think even in the Bay Area cultural norms vary, let alone across the United States, let alone Western Europe or whatever, let alone globally. But thinking about my perception of this immediate community, when a guy is a little bit more effeminate, how would he be perceived as opposed to a girl who's more masculine in her appearance or behavior? I guess it would be a question of degree, you know what I mean? WHat's your perception?

SS: I guess my kind of thought is that maybe femininity in boys if they're over-the-top feminine, they aren't going to be taken seriously as opposed to like really masculine girls.

GR: I think up to a point a girl can present in a more masculine way through her clothing, haircut, or demeanor, or voice, or speaking pattern, or whatever. And people might even not think anything of it up to a point. Whereas with a guy if his clothing or haircut or appearance or, like you said, makeup or something like that, or speaking voice was more feminine, I think people would - yeah, you're right - probably would notice that more. Might be less accepting of it, I guess. I'm not sure if the girl pushed it further into masculine behavoir and appearance, when the guy did the same thing, in terms of... Yeah, I guess so.

SS: Do you agree that maybe femininity is valued as less than masculinity?

GR: I think it's seen as less serious. I don't know about valued in a totally general way, but I think you used the word serious before. Yeah, I think whatever the characteristics people generally attribute to feminine as opposed to masculine, they may be valued differently, but I think they're less serious, or, depending on the context, less important.

SS: Do you think that kind of relates to discrimination in the workplace.

GR: Yeah, for sure. And like, if the girl wore frilly dresses to work, and a guy wore traditionally masculine clothing, he would be taken more seriously than her. Again, it's sort of a question of degree. If she dressed in a more kind of masculine way with the women's suits or that kind of thing, or even pants and a shirt, whereas the guy dressed in a more feminine way, that'd hurt him more professionally. Probably.

SS: Do you think it's important to make the world a more accepting and welcoming place for gender nonconforming people? And if so, how can this be done?

GR: Well, did anybody say no? I mena, people should be always accepted for who they are, especially to the extent that their identity is genuine. I mean, when it appears to me that the person is trying to be somebody tha tthey're not, if it feels that way, what appears to me to be inauthenticity feels like somehting's not right and I will judge a person like that or whatever,  but if I think a person appears to be authentic about who they are and that's gender nonconforming, they need to feel comfortable and safe in being who they are without being judged because they don't conform, to kind of even somewhat less rigid standards in this community, compared to places where the standasrds are even more rigid, but there's definitly standars and expectations in this community that limit people's ability to kind of feel comfortable with being authentic with who they are. I think that's changing. It's a sign that it can change. I think it mostly changes because individuals speak out about their own experience, they organize with other people who have the same experience or feel the same way to kind of create a sense of unity around their own experience and share that with other people. I think political activism and organizing changes how cultures work. I think art changes how people see the world that they live in. So people who want a world that's more accepting, who speak out, share their experience, organize with other people, advocate for what they think is right, create art that expresses their experience and poin tof view, that's how things change.

SS: Is there anything else you would like to add?

GR: Well, what do you think?

SS: About the last question?

GR: Pick one. Which one's most interesting to you?

SS: I don't know, they're all somewhat interesting. I could go on a rant about all of them, basically.

GR: Okay, rant on one.

SS: One of them... I can't pick.

GR: WEll, you've talked to a whole bunch of people so far. Which one seems to be the one that made you think the most?

SS: I don't know, I guess the first one about defining "man" and "woman," as well as the one about whether or not it's appropriate for women to show their breasts in public. Because there's the most disagreement on those two, I guess.

GR: Like what?

SS: For the first question, one of the things I was looking for was seeing if the people are going to say anything about people identifying with a gender, which kind of shows how much transgender awareness there is, possibly [and/or whether or not they understand the terminology]. And not a lot of people said something about that. Like, maybe a quarter or a third, I'm not sure. I haven't really counted yet. And then for the chest thing, I guess it was just weird how some people didn't even understand the question. It's like, "Oh, that's because women have breasts," and I'm like, "Ok, that's a great answer, but it doesn't--"

GR: That's the point.

SS: Yeah, they kind of miss the point of the question.

GR: People are really uncomfortable talking about it.

SS: Possibly, yeah. I guess maybe they don't really think about other possibilities.

GR: What's your sense of how accepting this community, like [this school] is of gender nonconformity?

SS: I think they're pretty cool with it, for the most part. I mean, I'm doing fine.

GR: Are there other students who you think identify that way, consciously?

SS: Yeah. I mean like I have a friend who's a guy and experiments with makeup and stuff and I don't think he's gotten any[/much] negative feedback, so I think it's pretty accepting.

GR: I think your topic is interesting because the way you're stating it, it's not about sexuality. I mean, it probably is on some level, but it isn't necessarily about sexuality. It's about other aspects of gender. And I think it's something that probably most people experience on some level, and I'm sure when you talked to people, they all had examples of how they don't conform to gender expectations.

SS: Most of them did.

GR: So, on some level, more maybe than asking a question about sexuality, like "Do you have homosexual feelings, even if you identify as heterosexual?" or whatever, it's something that most people can kind of identify on some level with the kind of main experience you're talking about.

SS: I was going to say something, and then I forgot...

GR: What's the endpoint? So you're collecting these, are you going to have your own thesis?

SS: No, I'm not going to have  a thesis [not true], I'm going to write something about it. Probably no more than a couple pages. Maybe just go on my rants about all the questions.

GR: And you say "rant," is that because you feel really strongly about your point of view?

SS: Possibly. Maybe, I don't know. I guess rants because... I guess I do have opinions about a lot of things and I just want to get them across, but also like write about what I learned from the interviews. About people's thoughts/perceptions.

GR: You know, another example that I have thought about before that fits your point is the way tomboys, especially up until middle school, are way more accepted and approved of than a boy who presents more feminine. Even pretty conservative parents would not be terribly unhappy with a tomboyish girl. They'd assume as she got older she'd become more feminine. I think that's my stereotype, in a way. Where as with a boy who presents as more feminine, they're gonna get more tense about it. I think that's indicative of what you were saying about valuing masculinity more than femininity.

SS: Yeah, and I guess the thing with feminine boys is that the whole thing with homophobia kind of come in.

GR: I think it's really interesting, and I'm not sure what I think about this, there's the whole question of separating the relationship between presenting with characteristics of a gender, sexuality being part of that. And so, there's feminine presenting boys who are straight, and masculine presenting girls who are straight, and vise versa and everything. And the boy who's growing up feminine, I think people are much more likely to think that he's gay, and that's also bad from some people's point of view. And the girl who's presenting as a boy, they're not necessarily going to assume or have the same kind of negative judgements about her sexuality.

Note: This interview was done in person.

Thuy-Tien Le

Thuy-Tien Le

Sasha Sobol: What are your definitions of “man” and “woman?”

Thuy-Tien Le: My definitions of a man and a woman pretty much changed a lot since I was little because when I was little, I thought that it’s mostly that a man is someone who has male parts and a woman is someone who has female parts. But upon entering high school and being more open-minded to more ideas, I guess I now define a man as someone who identifies as a man and a woman as someone who identifies as a woman.

SS: Are there any gender roles that you think should exist and are there any that you wish weren’t there?

TL: I don’t think any gender roles should exist in general because I feel like both genders could be equal, so having gender roles there will limit a gender [in] what you can do and stuff.

SS: Do you conform to society’s gender expectations?

TL: I guess so, to some point I do conform because sometimes when I’m in PE and stuff and we’re playing soccer or something, and a girl is like “pass me the ball” and some guy is like “pass me the ball, I would most likely pick the guy ‘cause gender roles kid of give guys more power over females. So, to some point I do, but I try not to.

SS: Is there anything that you do that is not typically associated with your gender?

TL: I guess so. Sometimes, like when I was little. Most girls played with Barbies and stuff, and that was mostly a girl thing, but when I was little, I hated Barbies. Like, I would start crying when I see them. So, when I was little, I played more with cars and I’m more of a video game person than a shopping person and I guess that’s not really a trait that’s identified as female.

SS: For the parts where you do conform, is it more because society expects you to or because that’s just who you are?

TL: I guess it’s part of both. For most time, I don’t really care what society thinks of me and I just kind of act on my own terms, but then for other parts, I’m like, well, I’m afraid society is going to judge me for what I do, so maybe I should act a little more female-ish. And that’s somewhat it, too.

SS: The next question is about two situations and I’m going to tell you what they are and ask you what you think about them. So, the first one is that a lot of the time when it’s socially acceptable for a man to expose his chest, a woman has to cover hers and there are laws in some places that prohibit women from showing their chests in public. The second situation is that when it’s acceptable for women to show their arms, legs, and cleavage, like when they’re wearing dresses and in other formal situations, men can’t do that. What do you think about that?

TL: I think there’s a reason to why that is. We, males and females have different body parts and for some people, a woman’s chest might be sexual, but for some people it might not, but it is understandable, I don’t know... I guess it’s understandable, but thinking about it, it’s not really fair, is it?

SS: Do you think the laws should be there?

TL: It depends on how society thinks about it. If it becomes not a sexual thing for a woman to just be walking around with her shirt off, then I guess the laws should be taken away, but right now if I’m walking on the street and I just see a woman wearing pants, no shirt, I would probably take it as she’s a very sexual person.

SS: What about the second situation with formal wear and the restrictions that are placed on men?

TL: For formal wear, I don’t really think it’s a really fair thing for guys because I feel like guys, they have a lot going on for them because of being afraid of being judged as being gay or something, because it is sometimes acceptable for a guy to show his arms and legs and stuff, but it wouldn’t really mark them as the most masculine person out there. And I don’t think that should be something that they should be judged for.

SS: The next question kind of relates to feminine men being judge. Basically, how society is okayer with masculine women and girls than feminine men and boys. Why do you think that is and why do you think femininity is valued as less than masculinity?

TL: Well, I think it’s mostly the society that defines it, because the society, I guess, guys are supposedly viewed as having more power and being more in control and being the stronger of the two genders. And for a guy to be less masculine and society just kind of points at them like “hey! You’re not the strongest guy there! you’re not the most in-control guy,” and they start looking down on the guy because he’s not what society expects him to be. And, for a girl, it’s more like “hey, we’re the weaker gender” and no one really expects much out of girls, so when a girl’s masculine, or more masculine than [the average girl], then society kind of accepts that more than guys because I think society has more expectation out of guys.

SS: How do you think that relates to discrimination in the workplace?

TL: Well it relates to discrimination because well like I feel like people like having more guys in the workplace because they expect more out of guys than women, which I don’t think is fair because I feel like both genders are supposed to be equal because it is equality.

SS: Do you think it’s important to make the world a more welcoming place to gender nonconforming people? If your answer is yes, how do you think this can be done?

TL: Of course, I think it should obviously  be made more welcome and to advocate this, I guess we should use less gender [specific] terms, like he or boy or she. I think we should use terms that kind of like identify with both genders.

SS: Is there anything else you would like to add?

TL: We should stop judging people. Just let them be the way they want to be.

Note: This interview was done in person.

Aaron Alejo

Aaron Alejo

Sasha Sobol: What are your definitions of "man" and "woman?"

Aaron Alejo: Well, many people believe how men should be always the breadwinner. It's like, men get the jobs, get the money, and they basically just do everything while the women just stay at home and take care of children. It's the most stereotypical version of men and women, but we don't see that in our society today. It's like, today women play a bigger role than men for some reason. You notice how [at this school] there's more female teachers than male teachers.

SS: Do you think that could just be specific to the job?

AA: Well, I don't know, really. It's like, women, they care about kids and they have to be around kids and it's built around this idea that women have to take care of kids and that's what their role in life is.

SS: Do you believe that there are any gender roles that should exist? For example, do you think all women have to take care of children? Do you support those gender roles or are there any that you wish did not exist?

AA: I believe that women shouldn't... well, I mean, it's alright for them to care about each other. That's a good thing. But it's to a point how we're sexist and start saying things like "Oh, you have to take care of my kids and I will get the money. And when I come back, I'm not going to do anything with the kids." And, I mean I wish those stereotypes weren't real, how women are supposed to be always at home and they have to take care of the kids... It's just like some gender roles, like there's never a woman president in the United States. Like, some people aren't fit for the job and it's not because of the gender.

SS: Do you think if there wasn't so much sexism out there, there would be more women leaders?

AA: Yeah, I think if there's no sexism at all, none of these gender roles would  be around. Like, men would people people that take care of the kids while the women are workers.

SS: Doesn't that just seem like the reverse of the gender roles that are already there though?

AA: It's true, but it's like giving a variety. Maybe some males work and some males take care. That's how we can break that sexism.

SS: Do you conform to the society's expectations gender-wise? If so, is it more because you identify with the expectations or because society expects you to?

AA: What do you mean?

SS: Are you mostly the way society expects guys to be?

AA: Me? Personally? Well, not really. Because [guys are supposed to be in sports and] I am not in any sports at all. And how some guys at our school have to live up to the expectations to always have bad grades. I don't have bad grades. So I  can't really say that I'm living up to the expectations.

SS: Do you think it's kind of ironic how society expects guys to get bad grades?

AA: Yeah... Society can be a tricky thing.

SS: Is there anything that you actively do that is not associated with your gender, other than getting good grades and not participating in sports?

AA: I think I look up to my gender roles. You could say that I do, but I think I don't, but I do. That's kind of weird.

SS: The next question is about two situations. First, a lot of the time when it's socially acceptable for a man to show his chest, a woman has to cover hers and there are laws in a lot of places that prohibit women from showing their nipples. And the second situation is that in formal wear in particular, women are allowed to show their legs, arms, and cleavage, while men have to cover all of that and they don't really have many options. What do you think about these two situations and how do you think they relate if they do?

AA: So the first one is how guys can just take off their shirts and just walk around shirtless, while women always have to wear something to cover the breasts. I mean, there's nothing wrong with [women walking around with] their shirts off. To us, guys, we would like that quality to see it, but I don't know if I'm sounding like a gentleman... It's their choice if they want to walk around [topless]. If they're uncomfortable and want to cover themselves, they can. Like not all guys take off their shirts and walk around naked. And then the second situation.. Well, I guess it's just in this generation. Because in past generations [women covered more of their skin]. I'm trying to say that it's our generation that's making these stereotypes. We don't have to live up to the stereotypes. We don't have to wear short shorts, we don't have to wear spaghetti straps, it's just a stereotype to impress the guys.

SS: Do you think there's anything ironic about the fact that in some situations, women have to hide more of their body and in other situations men have to hide more of theirs?

AA: I think it's more about religious beliefs. Here in the United States women can wear whatever they want, while in the Middle East they have to wear veils. I don;t really know why they do it. I guess to hide their beauty. [tells an irrelevant story...] People believe that males are more dominant than females. The males would do anything they want to women because they can't do anything about it.

SS: Why do you think masculinity is valued as more than femininity and why are feminine men frowned upon by society more than masculine women?

AA: People would always want to be the strongest. If we show that we are more dominant to someone else, we can have more power. And when we have power, we are hungry for more. One little taste of power and you go blood thirsty. [That's why men would dominate over women and hit them]. I believe it's immoral and it's wrong. How feminine guys are looked down is because they don't live up to their stereotypes. How "You're supposed to be strong, you're supposed to be a leader, you're supposed to like women and only women." Basically I'm just trying to say how it's power and religion that's focusing around these beliefs of sexual experiences.

SS: Do you think it's important to make the world a more accepting and welcoming place for gender nonconforming people? If so, how can this be done?

AA: I do think we should make this world more accepting. So, my beliefs, I really care about how we treat each other because it's morally wrong how we treat each other badly.

SS: How do you think we can make the world more welcoming?

AA: We need to have some sort of understanding before we can step in and say that this is wrong. So we can be Cultural Relativists, sort of.

SS: Is there anything else you would like to add? Is there anything that you want to say about gender roles or anything we talked about that you didn't get to say?

AA: I think I'm just trying to say how power over each other influences gender roles and also religion influences gender roles. There's no such thing as a female priest.

SS: In Catholicism.

AA: Yeah. It's because some people believe that some roles are only for males and some roles are only for women. And if we do a role of a woman, we think of ourselves as pathetic, weak, and if you're gonna act like a woman, be a woman. And that's really hurtful, but...

SS: So, wait, are you said that if a man is feminine, he has to transition to female?

AA: Oh, no, no, no. Sort of, but it's like in male society, wen we see guy acting a different way, we start saying gay and stuff like that and that's influencing them, like "You shouldn't be here because you're gay, so get out." So I'm trying to say how some people are unwanted in some societies because they're not living up to their role.

SS: Thank you.

Note: This interview was done in person.